A hooded male stabbed another man in the head and neck yesterday as they both queued to buy copies of Grand Theft Auto IV from a Croydon Gamestation store.
Onlookers witnessed the Niko-style stabbing, which some bystanders have said they initially thought was a stunt pulled to whip-up yet more excitement for the eagerly …
I can only speak for myself but when I was a kid my dad let me watch plenty of 18 certificate films when i was about 12-13 on wards. Plenty of these films were very violent but somehow and I dont know. I managed to go to uni get a degree and then get a very good job.
That while 50% of the involved murder-simulator immersees were carrying knives, 50% weren't- a marked improvement from previous years where (according to my Daily Mail) EVERY SINGLE GAMER was packing about 400kg of guns/ammo/armour that they found in crates at the side of the road.
GTA:IV is clearly then FAR LESS likely to cause murders than Doom (bodycount from Doom: Columbine and Dunblane, according to said Daily Mail; bodycount from GTA:IV: 1 person). So, from what I can see, the route towards societal peace is to support more games with ridiculous amounts of guns and ammo, lots of drugs, and plenty of sexual content. I'll provide the graph to prove it if anyone asks politely.
Games rock. GTA:IV should rock more than most games. Though I doubt it'll reach the levels of rock attained by GTA: Vice City.
lets get some perspective .... this happened in Croydon!?
lets get some perspective .... this happened in Croydon!?
i wouldnt surprise me if this would have happened if these two people had met anyway?
last week there was a stabbing outside west croydon station at 3 in the afternoon - not anecdotal: i saw the abmbulances, the pools of blood and the police...
where was Mr Vaz, the Reg or the Daily mail then?
nor, is it jsut the afternoons! twice this year in the mornings on teh way to work there were pools of fresh blood near the george st tram stop!?
maybe it was people getting train rage after an all night session on M$ Train simulater: urban edtion ?
none of these events made it beyond a foot note in the local rag!
"Some anti-GTA IV campaigners have already jumped on both incidents as proof that such games are too violent for society."
Well duuuuuuuh! So playstation 3's are evil too becasue the same happened with them, and X box's. Crikey we'd better just ban all computer consoles and games!
I say these anti-GTA IV campaigners are TOO DUMB! for society!
- allow your kids to grow through their teenage years with no limits or boundaries, still disciplining them but not shielding them away from modern life, or
- restrict your kids access to anything deemed by some censorship body as "inappropriate", stoke their curiousity up until the day they turn 18, at which point the parent loses guardianship and has no control over their child whatsoever..
I grew up through the first one and I'm a fairly well rounded individual - never committed a crime, but been exposed to depravity, filth, crime etc through tv and video games. And when I have kids, I'll expose them to it too - it's when they learn the most and start developing their personalities.
"The people I really feel for at the moment is the staff in the real life games stores who will be under huge pressure with kids (some with parents / other adults) coming in to buy this game, and the problems they're going to face with that."
And replied:
"thats no different from kids wanting toys that are too expensive. my parent just said NO when i was younger. since then i have gone out and earned my way without help from anyone. saying YES just to make life easier is the reason we have so many unruly kids that cannot take NO for an answer."
Maybe I'm being slow today (wouldn't be the first time) but I don't see the connection.... All I was saying there was that I feel for the games store assistants who are getting the shitty end of the stick from kids & parents when they refuse to sell / say "you ARE aware this is an 18-rated game you're buying for your 9yo son, right? And that the game manufacturer agrees it's not suitable for minors?" - because they get a lot of grief for this (based on what I've seen in Game/HMV/Zavvi etc). I don't personally think this is a suitable game for kiddies, even if they are "very grown up for 12", and was just telling the AC he's not on his own with the child pestering him. My 12yo nephew has been doing the same to his mum, but she has the balls (metaphorically!!!!) to say no and deal with the ensuing tantrums. So did I when he then came to ask "Uncle Mikeeeeeeey" because I *do* buy him some 15 etc rated games - but only after I have played them myself and am comfortable that the content is suitable. In this case, "no chance kid!"
..this game just plays into the hands of the the pathetic yardie-imitating chavs that scurry around our towns in their pitiful, exhausted Novas and Saxos. Just what our society needs, another stupid game that kiddiots can play endlessly while they listen to their shit garage 'music', smoke their homegrown skunk and furiously w**k themselves into oblivion over their dog-eared copies of Nuts magazine. And it's all fine until one of more insecure ones decides to start carrying an knife or a gun...
According to an eyewitness (i.e. sombody in the queue), the stabbed man walked past the queue and said "Get a life". Upon which somebody from the queue jumped out and stabbed him...
Now, I didn't hear of this happening at the launch of Wii-Fit......
Logical(ish) conclusion? Violent video games cause violence.
Proper conclusion? The guy who did the stabbing was a complete psycho and would've done it regardless of what he was queueing for.
>"Some anti-GTA IV campaigners have already jumped on both incidents as proof that such games are too violent for society."
That explanation fails to consider the fact that we've seen very similar dickhead behaviour left right and centre down the years in contexts that have nothing to do with video games - for instance the opening of new Ikea stores, at least one of which there was a stabbing at, or does anyone remember the fist-fights that broke out in toy shops when Cabbage Patch dolls were the latest must-have thing? So it looks to me like their reasoning is demonstrably back-to-front: the game can't be the necessary cause if the same thing happens without the game being involved.
It is society that is too violent in every context, not just games.
sorry mate - i think i meant to quote something/someone else :) (im tired too after celebrating england whooping the spaniards AGAIN at footy :))
i was trying to say that parent cannot let kids play 18 games then complain. arghh too tired to even bother... my apologies... nothing to see here... keep moving on :)
"The victim managed to survive the ordeal - and stumbled home to grab a knife for a revenge attack. However, he collapsed in the street on his way back to the store."
If only he'd have picked up a health pack or bought a burger.
What possesses someone to use a knife like that? The RPG is far more effective as you don't need to be as close.
Before I started playing first-person shooters I didn't fantasise about shooting holes in people who were a little bit rude to me. I've personally stopped playing FPSs, and I'm better now.
I support a sensible debate on the control of immersively violent games and am bloody well sick of the usual reactionaries on both sides screaming "games are evil!" and "games don't have the slightest effect".
Paris, because when I hear her speak I'm more inclined to hit-and-run violence than when I play GTA.
Not sure what you mean by being monitored by the government due to my lack of porn/alcohol usage prior to turning 18. Are you monitored in some way? Do they know you have access to the internet?
I'm not sure how the government monitoring my teenage porn-buying escapades would have any bearing on whether or not I turned out as shockingly dull as I am. I wasn't tall enough to reach the top shelf either.
Going back to the original post, we don't actually know how old the kid in question is. You said you wouldn't mind a 14 year old playing GTA4. What if he's 8? Is that young enough? If he's not old enough to earn the cash to buy it himself, then he shouldn't be playing it. Is that a better benchmark? I don't know. Anyway, I'm off to catch up on my drinking. I didn't start 'til I was 18, you see.
"if video games affected children we would all be running around in the dark,eating little white pills listening to repetitve electronic music"
Well I can't say for sure whether the quote was ever made by someone from Nintendo, but I saw it last night on a few year old repeat of a Jack Dee standup. Except it wasn't Jack, but some guy called Marcus Brigstocke - and he was funny as fuck.
As for this event, well to be honest, the two people involved are probably a fine example of the sort of person who SHOULDN'T be allowed to watch violent tv, play violent games and the like. Unfortunately until they make psychological screening a pre-requisite for said activities, there's not much can be done. Why ruin it for the 99.9% of people who buy a game like GTA4, play it and carry on with their normal lives without the need to stab anyone?
Oh and on another note, I am halfway between being impressed and disturbed at the obvious amount of effort that has gone into making picking up a hooker more interesting. Gone are the GTA3 days of the car shaking from side to side a bit, but you can still probably run her over afterwards and get your money back :)
"Keith Vaz, a prominent British Labour MP, said that news of both incidents didn't surprise him."
What he probably meant was, "I'm not surprised to hear that, in today's Britain, people are stabbing each other and mugging people for their possessions...it happens every day."
Before the day's of computer's and video games people were beating each other up stabbing each other and stealing someone's possessions that they wanted for themselves.
Nothing has changed at all now that you can do it on a computer game, the same violent ass wipes are still out there but they also what to play the cool game just like you.
Human behavior has not changed for a very long time and the item that people get stabbed/beat up/mugged over has no bearing on this.
As for those people saying their kids want this game, well if you buy this game for your children than your a bad parent full stop. These games have an 18 rating meaning they are for adults only. Sure I might understand you being a little lax with a 16 or 17 year old. But I've seen 8 year olds with this game. What needs to be stopped is these piss poor parents that are exposing/buying their children adult only material.
The media basically needs the public to have a bogeyman and games fit the bill. They are the preserve of the geek, the nerd, the quiet teenager locked in his room hour after hour, they are a great unknown to the chattering classes and middle Englanders all reading the Daily Mail and fearing that chavs or immigrants will invade their cosy little villages and devalue their property. Games industry, unlike music and movies isn't used to the attention yet, they haven't quite got the hang of basically saying bugger off, yes well stick some more labels saying anyone under 48 isn't allowed to buy it, whatever you want, just sod off.
Sorry but alcohol and/or driving ( without or without a mobile!) causes more deaths an injuries than any other aspects of modern life, don't see many angry mothers picketing TESCO demanding all the alcohol be poured down the drain. Don't see the government banning drink or cars, now why is that? Oh yes, 'cos it makes shed-loads in taxes, unlike games which only reel in the usual 17.5%.
Of course they are, you bleeding' idiot. That is the entire point of the joke.
Putting a "Joke alert" on your post when you're just spoiling the original joke by clumsily restating and explaining it doesn't make you immune from having missed the joke yourself, which you clearly did. EPIC FAIL.
I am disappointed this stabbed bloke only went to get a knife - if he'd returned with a samurai sword, an ice pick or a chainsaw then that would be worthy of respect......
The delivery van driver dropping off my copy of GTA IV special edition stabbed me in the head too, and ran off with it, the bastard!!
The knife went right thru the skull, I have a slight headache but I'm alright now.
.
Moral of the story - If you're buying a copy of a game from a hellhole of a games shop in a hellhole of a town like Croydon, expect such behaviour - its not news to me.
I would have been surprised if NO such stabbing occurred at least once somewhere like that.
Having said that, Manchester seems to be a bit too peaceful at the moment!!!
Seriously though, I live in France and films that were rated over 18 in Ireland (where I grew up) and Britain are rated at 12 here. Movie violence is rarely rated over 12 here. There's no 15 rating,soft porn gets a 16 rating and hard porn gets an 18 rating. And they don't even have a 21 rating! And you don't see French kids killing and raping each other in the streets every day.
I think the Irish and British censors are living on another planet. And I won't even get into American "values" when it comes to TV censorship. You can burn, bomb, shoot, strangle, torture, maim, rape and kill, only during the destructive act of choice you can't show more flesh than you'd see in church on Sunday (except for HBO of course!).
Mine's the one with "don't tell me what I can and can't watch" written on it.
Register
A hooded male stabbed another man in the head and neck yesterday as they both queued to buy copies of Grand Theft Auto IV from a Croydon Gamestation store. Onlookers witnessed the Niko-style stabbing, which some bystanders have said they initially thought was a stunt pulled to whip-up yet more excitement for the eagerly …
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@ General Age Concern
I can only speak for myself but when I was a kid my dad let me watch plenty of 18 certificate films when i was about 12-13 on wards. Plenty of these films were very violent but somehow and I dont know. I managed to go to uni get a degree and then get a very good job.
Strange!
Surely this shows
That while 50% of the involved murder-simulator immersees were carrying knives, 50% weren't- a marked improvement from previous years where (according to my Daily Mail) EVERY SINGLE GAMER was packing about 400kg of guns/ammo/armour that they found in crates at the side of the road.
GTA:IV is clearly then FAR LESS likely to cause murders than Doom (bodycount from Doom: Columbine and Dunblane, according to said Daily Mail; bodycount from GTA:IV: 1 person). So, from what I can see, the route towards societal peace is to support more games with ridiculous amounts of guns and ammo, lots of drugs, and plenty of sexual content. I'll provide the graph to prove it if anyone asks politely.
Games rock. GTA:IV should rock more than most games. Though I doubt it'll reach the levels of rock attained by GTA: Vice City.
lets get some perspective .... this happened in Croydon!?
lets get some perspective .... this happened in Croydon!?
i wouldnt surprise me if this would have happened if these two people had met anyway?
last week there was a stabbing outside west croydon station at 3 in the afternoon - not anecdotal: i saw the abmbulances, the pools of blood and the police...
where was Mr Vaz, the Reg or the Daily mail then?
nor, is it jsut the afternoons! twice this year in the mornings on teh way to work there were pools of fresh blood near the george st tram stop!?
maybe it was people getting train rage after an all night session on M$ Train simulater: urban edtion ?
none of these events made it beyond a foot note in the local rag!
Driving Simulators
Given how badly some ultraviolent game/film/tv show appears to affect the weakwilled public what about the following:
a- Dumbed down tv shows making stupid people even more stupid
b- Ensuring RTA's involving speed have not seen the F1/Rally cars in the 24 hours prior to driving (god help em if they have GT5 at home)
c- Politicians on TV - making kids think its ok to lie and cheat...
lol @ darsyx
"if video games affected children we would all be running around in the dark,eating little white pills listening to repetitve electronic music"
Ive always loved that quote. I believe it was from the original creator of the Nintendo wayyy back in the 80's. Such foresight.
Paris cos she does all of the above. :)
anti-GTA IV campaigners TOO DUMB! for society
"Some anti-GTA IV campaigners have already jumped on both incidents as proof that such games are too violent for society."
Well duuuuuuuh! So playstation 3's are evil too becasue the same happened with them, and X box's. Crikey we'd better just ban all computer consoles and games!
I say these anti-GTA IV campaigners are TOO DUMB! for society!
@Phil Hare
Actually, it's "rip off someone's head" rather than "cut off someone's head".
I'll get my blood stained coat.
All about timing
Hrm, you can either:
- allow your kids to grow through their teenage years with no limits or boundaries, still disciplining them but not shielding them away from modern life, or
- restrict your kids access to anything deemed by some censorship body as "inappropriate", stoke their curiousity up until the day they turn 18, at which point the parent loses guardianship and has no control over their child whatsoever..
I grew up through the first one and I'm a fairly well rounded individual - never committed a crime, but been exposed to depravity, filth, crime etc through tv and video games. And when I have kids, I'll expose them to it too - it's when they learn the most and start developing their personalities.
@ Liam
Liam: Don't understand your response....
You quoted me:
"The people I really feel for at the moment is the staff in the real life games stores who will be under huge pressure with kids (some with parents / other adults) coming in to buy this game, and the problems they're going to face with that."
And replied:
"thats no different from kids wanting toys that are too expensive. my parent just said NO when i was younger. since then i have gone out and earned my way without help from anyone. saying YES just to make life easier is the reason we have so many unruly kids that cannot take NO for an answer."
Maybe I'm being slow today (wouldn't be the first time) but I don't see the connection.... All I was saying there was that I feel for the games store assistants who are getting the shitty end of the stick from kids & parents when they refuse to sell / say "you ARE aware this is an 18-rated game you're buying for your 9yo son, right? And that the game manufacturer agrees it's not suitable for minors?" - because they get a lot of grief for this (based on what I've seen in Game/HMV/Zavvi etc). I don't personally think this is a suitable game for kiddies, even if they are "very grown up for 12", and was just telling the AC he's not on his own with the child pestering him. My 12yo nephew has been doing the same to his mum, but she has the balls (metaphorically!!!!) to say no and deal with the ensuing tantrums. So did I when he then came to ask "Uncle Mikeeeeeeey" because I *do* buy him some 15 etc rated games - but only after I have played them myself and am comfortable that the content is suitable. In this case, "no chance kid!"
Paris cos I'm probably just being slow (again).
Edit required...
"Keith Vaz, an infamous British Labour MP, said a load of old bollocks, as usual."
More importantly.
If I don't hear when the PC version is out, I'm going to stab someone in the head in one of those stupid queues.
Unfortunately...
..this game just plays into the hands of the the pathetic yardie-imitating chavs that scurry around our towns in their pitiful, exhausted Novas and Saxos. Just what our society needs, another stupid game that kiddiots can play endlessly while they listen to their shit garage 'music', smoke their homegrown skunk and furiously w**k themselves into oblivion over their dog-eared copies of Nuts magazine. And it's all fine until one of more insecure ones decides to start carrying an knife or a gun...
Pac-Man caused fights back in the day,
usually between the people waiting for a go and anyone they considered to be hogging the machine. Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.
Forget video games, maybe they should ban Scandinavian furniture stores
Check out what happens when you queue up at Ikea...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4252421.stm
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article102699.ece
Maybe they've actually got a point...
According to an eyewitness (i.e. sombody in the queue), the stabbed man walked past the queue and said "Get a life". Upon which somebody from the queue jumped out and stabbed him...
Now, I didn't hear of this happening at the launch of Wii-Fit......
Logical(ish) conclusion? Violent video games cause violence.
Proper conclusion? The guy who did the stabbing was a complete psycho and would've done it regardless of what he was queueing for.
What a bunch of specious crap.
>"Some anti-GTA IV campaigners have already jumped on both incidents as proof that such games are too violent for society."
That explanation fails to consider the fact that we've seen very similar dickhead behaviour left right and centre down the years in contexts that have nothing to do with video games - for instance the opening of new Ikea stores, at least one of which there was a stabbing at, or does anyone remember the fist-fights that broke out in toy shops when Cabbage Patch dolls were the latest must-have thing? So it looks to me like their reasoning is demonstrably back-to-front: the game can't be the necessary cause if the same thing happens without the game being involved.
It is society that is too violent in every context, not just games.
Government policy
Fight them there so we don't have to fight them here. Never sounded so reasonable before.
@ Mike Crawshaw
sorry mate - i think i meant to quote something/someone else :) (im tired too after celebrating england whooping the spaniards AGAIN at footy :))
i was trying to say that parent cannot let kids play 18 games then complain. arghh too tired to even bother... my apologies... nothing to see here... keep moving on :)
Burgers
"The victim managed to survive the ordeal - and stumbled home to grab a knife for a revenge attack. However, he collapsed in the street on his way back to the store."
If only he'd have picked up a health pack or bought a burger.
What possesses someone to use a knife like that? The RPG is far more effective as you don't need to be as close.
Before I started playing first-person shooters...
Before I started playing first-person shooters I didn't fantasise about shooting holes in people who were a little bit rude to me. I've personally stopped playing FPSs, and I'm better now.
I support a sensible debate on the control of immersively violent games and am bloody well sick of the usual reactionaries on both sides screaming "games are evil!" and "games don't have the slightest effect".
Paris, because when I hear her speak I'm more inclined to hit-and-run violence than when I play GTA.
@ the anonymous coward that replied to my post
Not sure what you mean by being monitored by the government due to my lack of porn/alcohol usage prior to turning 18. Are you monitored in some way? Do they know you have access to the internet?
I'm not sure how the government monitoring my teenage porn-buying escapades would have any bearing on whether or not I turned out as shockingly dull as I am. I wasn't tall enough to reach the top shelf either.
Going back to the original post, we don't actually know how old the kid in question is. You said you wouldn't mind a 14 year old playing GTA4. What if he's 8? Is that young enough? If he's not old enough to earn the cash to buy it himself, then he shouldn't be playing it. Is that a better benchmark? I don't know. Anyway, I'm off to catch up on my drinking. I didn't start 'til I was 18, you see.
I find.....
the best way to discourage my kids from playing anything like this is to buy it, play it myself and make comments about how "cool" and "awesome" it is
@ David & darsyx
"if video games affected children we would all be running around in the dark,eating little white pills listening to repetitve electronic music"
Well I can't say for sure whether the quote was ever made by someone from Nintendo, but I saw it last night on a few year old repeat of a Jack Dee standup. Except it wasn't Jack, but some guy called Marcus Brigstocke - and he was funny as fuck.
As for this event, well to be honest, the two people involved are probably a fine example of the sort of person who SHOULDN'T be allowed to watch violent tv, play violent games and the like. Unfortunately until they make psychological screening a pre-requisite for said activities, there's not much can be done. Why ruin it for the 99.9% of people who buy a game like GTA4, play it and carry on with their normal lives without the need to stab anyone?
Oh and on another note, I am halfway between being impressed and disturbed at the obvious amount of effort that has gone into making picking up a hooker more interesting. Gone are the GTA3 days of the car shaking from side to side a bit, but you can still probably run her over afterwards and get your money back :)
@darsyx
"if video games affected children we would all be running around in the dark,eating little white pills listening to repetitve electronic music"
Wait. Aren't you talking about a rave? Some of that Tiesto "music" sounds repetitive enough!
Re - Keith Vaz comment...
"Keith Vaz, a prominent British Labour MP, said that news of both incidents didn't surprise him."
What he probably meant was, "I'm not surprised to hear that, in today's Britain, people are stabbing each other and mugging people for their possessions...it happens every day."
Gotta hate these idiots
Before the day's of computer's and video games people were beating each other up stabbing each other and stealing someone's possessions that they wanted for themselves.
Nothing has changed at all now that you can do it on a computer game, the same violent ass wipes are still out there but they also what to play the cool game just like you.
Human behavior has not changed for a very long time and the item that people get stabbed/beat up/mugged over has no bearing on this.
As for those people saying their kids want this game, well if you buy this game for your children than your a bad parent full stop. These games have an 18 rating meaning they are for adults only. Sure I might understand you being a little lax with a 16 or 17 year old. But I've seen 8 year olds with this game. What needs to be stopped is these piss poor parents that are exposing/buying their children adult only material.
Latest scapegoat
The media basically needs the public to have a bogeyman and games fit the bill. They are the preserve of the geek, the nerd, the quiet teenager locked in his room hour after hour, they are a great unknown to the chattering classes and middle Englanders all reading the Daily Mail and fearing that chavs or immigrants will invade their cosy little villages and devalue their property. Games industry, unlike music and movies isn't used to the attention yet, they haven't quite got the hang of basically saying bugger off, yes well stick some more labels saying anyone under 48 isn't allowed to buy it, whatever you want, just sod off.
Sorry but alcohol and/or driving ( without or without a mobile!) causes more deaths an injuries than any other aspects of modern life, don't see many angry mothers picketing TESCO demanding all the alcohol be poured down the drain. Don't see the government banning drink or cars, now why is that? Oh yes, 'cos it makes shed-loads in taxes, unlike games which only reel in the usual 17.5%.
@Daniel B
>"Wait. Aren't you talking about a rave?"
*headdesk*
Of course they are, you bleeding' idiot. That is the entire point of the joke.
Putting a "Joke alert" on your post when you're just spoiling the original joke by clumsily restating and explaining it doesn't make you immune from having missed the joke yourself, which you clearly did. EPIC FAIL.
What i want to know is...
What video game does bush/blair/howard play that make them think invading a country and killing hundreds of thousands of people is cool.
If im ever in court for a killing I will claim that Bush is my inspiration!
Give it to the kid
If the kid can play the game, and wants it, give it to him.
He's only young once, and having played it will give him a lot of cred with his mates.
If he's 12+ he will already have seen more porn and violence than you think.....
Chainsaw
I am disappointed this stabbed bloke only went to get a knife - if he'd returned with a samurai sword, an ice pick or a chainsaw then that would be worthy of respect......
A head for an eye.
Paris because she knows a lot about head.
Maybe it's not relevant...
...but neither of the knifemen was involved in queueing for GTA, as was pointed out *way* back at the top of the comments.
Similar to what happened to me . . .
The delivery van driver dropping off my copy of GTA IV special edition stabbed me in the head too, and ran off with it, the bastard!!
The knife went right thru the skull, I have a slight headache but I'm alright now.
.
Moral of the story - If you're buying a copy of a game from a hellhole of a games shop in a hellhole of a town like Croydon, expect such behaviour - its not news to me.
I would have been surprised if NO such stabbing occurred at least once somewhere like that.
Having said that, Manchester seems to be a bit too peaceful at the moment!!!
Could've been worse........
The stabee might've had a knife on him as well.
Seriously though, I live in France and films that were rated over 18 in Ireland (where I grew up) and Britain are rated at 12 here. Movie violence is rarely rated over 12 here. There's no 15 rating,soft porn gets a 16 rating and hard porn gets an 18 rating. And they don't even have a 21 rating! And you don't see French kids killing and raping each other in the streets every day.
I think the Irish and British censors are living on another planet. And I won't even get into American "values" when it comes to TV censorship. You can burn, bomb, shoot, strangle, torture, maim, rape and kill, only during the destructive act of choice you can't show more flesh than you'd see in church on Sunday (except for HBO of course!).
Mine's the one with "don't tell me what I can and can't watch" written on it.
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